The Cunt of Monte Crisco ([info]foibey) wrote,
@ 2009-05-21 18:35:00
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An update on Phoebe's big transgenderqueer liberation idea*

Lots of people responded, only a few people wanted to add anything to my list of problems that need dealing with and a lot of the UK-based people either don't feel confident in their ability to contribute directly to the discussion about what we need to get sorted out, or don't have the time/energy resources to get involved in something broader when they're already fighting a series of pretty exhausting battles as part of their day to day lives.

The localisation issue is an important one for me in part because of the fact that whilst there are a lot of common issues internationally, I think it's important that we put the effort in to organise on a local level. It's just too easy to form an international group of bloggers to discuss the issues but not get together and fight specific aspects locally. It's great to hear from people around the world about how their situation is similar or different and important from the point of view of understanding a number of fundamental aspects of transphobic culture and oppression which persist regardless of which region of the world you're from, but beyond the internet we need to start building real world groups and getting active.

There was some promising stuff about people planning to become more active when they move to Manchester (where I am) which I'd be really interested in getting involved with. I also know that there was a trans group in London that was somewhat orientated around politics rather than just peer support. If anyone down south knows about what's going on with the London group and would be interested in cluing them in on the idea that'd be great.

Now unless I'm hopelessly wrong about the nature of the response (on facebook and elsewhere), that means not much is going to happen in direct relationship to the Big Idea without me doing a bit of crusading to follow. Please if anyone thinks I'm wrong about this assessment of things, prove it by sending me an e-mail (foibey@gmail.com) and get active with me.

What this all means for me though is pretty much this: I'm not comfortable setting up for a campaign by myself (yet). I'm not convinced I, personally, have a well enough developed idea of what needs to be done to forge forward and drag along whichever people want to follow. One problem we (the trans community) seem to repeatedly face is that we're frequently represented (where groups of people in power are prepared to listen at all) by a tiny privileged minority shot full of blind spots about issues that affect quite a large spectrum of transgenderqueer people, and I don't want to get into recreating that just on account of the fact that I've got a bit of experience as an activist and can write relatively clear and persuasive arguments and agit-prop. Political experience and rhetorical flair are not qualifications for deciding how things should be, regardless of how often that ends up being the way democracy tends to work. They're really effective for getting to run things, they're really effective tools for making excuses when you fuck up, and tiny groups of privileged theorists are great for being co-opted by the government into designing the remodelled version of oppression without any accountability to the wider community.

HOWEVER: This doesn't mean that I'm going to just stop here. Things can and still should be done. If there's anyone out there who I've misunderstood who actually does want to work with me on building a radical transgenderqueer liberation movement (I know such people exist somewhere), please get in touch with me. If you have suggestions about where you'd prefer to discuss this stuff and work together tell me. I know a lot of us have day jobs. Getting involved doesn't have to mean signing over your life to The Cause. The fact that I'm a medicated & diagnosed & out/proud sort of trans person doesn't mean that if you're not out or in the medical system wrt gender issues (or have only recently gotten into the medical system) that you aren't sufficiently experienced about things to have a say. A lot of us don't even have a clear gender to transition into or any interest in medical intervention and this whole idea that such people aren't equipped to talk about transgenderqueer issues divides us horribly and weakens us. Trans/Not-Trans-Enough is just another false binary.

This comes back to what I said about small groups of privileged people leading causes - I'm no better equipped to talk on behalf of trans people with no interest in the medical system than they are to talk about abuse of trans people by the medical system. All of us have different experiences oppression based on our unusually-gendered** lives and it's that which we need to learn about together and organise collectively against. Without ending the gender hierarchy amongst us we can't unite against the one we're subjected to in our day to day lives.

In the meantime I'm going to work on gathering up a number of willing people and honing my own thoughts on how different bits of oppression interlink with each other and strategising and so on. Again, anyone interested in working with me on this on a local level, I'd really love to talk to you.

One thing I want to do locally in Manchester is work on some sort of a flyer and distributing it in places where there's already a known concentration of trans people (the gay village for instance) inviting people to come and get involved in some activism and discussion. For that I'd need to establish a venue (and it'd be nice to establish a group of people who were definitely going to come along in advance so I don't have to be sitting there panicking about noone turning up on my lonesome. I'd also be very happy to work with anyone elsewhere trying to set up a similar sort of group in terms of writing flyer text and such regardless of whether a local group gets set up here successfully.

* Note, the author is aware it's not an original idea, and trans activists everywhere seem to go through rounds of trying to drum up support for getting together and having a big sort-out and things fizzling out after a little bit of consciousness raising and perhaps a couple of demos.

** Whether that's unusual in our gender identities or the way people apply the gender system to us or both. A lot of our identities are perfectly commonplace, a lot of them also aren't. Getting bogged down in that when we're all being shat on is a red herring.



(17 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]hamsterine
2009-05-21 09:19 pm UTC (link)
For my part I guess I'm interested in keeping up to date with what other people think needs to be changed. I try to address any transphobia or cissexism as and when I encounter it (sometimes there are no such incidents for weeks or even months at a time, I'm pleased to report). If there are particular rules, beliefs or attitudes that some trans people find problematic I'd like to try and keep them in mind so that I can be vocal on their behalf as well as my own. Because I guess there will be a tendancy to only notice stuff that is a problem for me personally.

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[info]shiva_dan
2009-05-21 10:20 pm UTC (link)
Hrm, i dunno. From my perspective as non-transitioning genderqueer, i do feel like it would be sort of appropriative to call myself "trans" or to speak otherwise than as an ally on "transitioning trans" stuff. That may be right, may be wrong, i don't really know.

Part of this may be that i don't really experience gender as part of my identity at all, which i appreciate is unusual even among genderqueers (if society wasn't so heavily gendered, the concept would probably never even have crossed my mind). And i'm heavily aware that i have cissexual privilege (even if i don't have cisgendered privilege). Also, i'm not sure that there are or have been any instances of me being oppressed as genderqueer that i could actually separate out from me being oppressed as autistic.

I'm certainly up for spreading the word on stuff and for lending my presence as a body on demos etc, and for trying to build connections and crossovers with disability/neurodiversity activism.

ETA: none of that's to say that i won't contribute to debates, more that i would take something of a back seat in them, and subordinate my voice to those who have experienced things that i haven't experienced (eg body dysphoria, being a "visible"/"non-passing" trans person)...

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[info]foibey
2009-05-22 12:32 pm UTC (link)
We all experience things that other people don't, and lack experiences that other people do.

That's my point.

It's only appropriative when you start talking about issues you don't have experience of (say transitioning/passing/etc in your case, although there's a certain case to be made about issues relating to passing for non-trans, etc).

My personal definition of trans covers genderqueer stuff as part of covering people who generally transgress one way or another against the gender system, including people who refuse to identify themselves within it.

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[info]shiva_dan
2009-05-23 03:34 pm UTC (link)
Ah, i think you and I may be using some terms in slightly different ways...

I tend to use the term "genderqueer" as more of an umbrella term that includes (transitioning) trans* people, as well as those who are androgynous/ungendered/mixed-gendered/etc - whereas it looks like you are using "trans" as the more inclusive term and "genderqueer" as a subset of that - is that right? i am willing to change my usage, if it falls far from the generally accepted usage in trans/genderqueer activist communities...

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[info]shiva_dan
2009-05-23 03:47 pm UTC (link)
Also re the passing thing, again i'm not sure that i could disentangle issues around "passing for cisgendered" in my life from issues around "passing for neurotypical" (especially as i tend to see my genderqueerness as a part of my neuroatypicality)...

(apologies for arguably hogging this thread...)

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[info]shiva_dan
2009-05-21 10:22 pm UTC (link)
BTW, off topic i know, but just wanted to check that you'd seen my latest post :)

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[info]foibey
2009-05-22 12:34 pm UTC (link)
I will try and read it at some point.

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[info]darkwaterfairy
2009-05-21 11:58 pm UTC (link)
Think I've already mentioned my desire for and interest in a 'big turn around' project to you already but just thought I'd reiterate that am v v v enthusiatic about such an idea.

But, sadly I really need to focus on myself and my harem clan at the moment, for doing otherwise is only going to leave us stuck in health and financial mires ....and Wales - that the worse bit. Fucking Wales!

But I've finished investigating the good and bad part to live, so we'll hopefully start, for real, looking at letting agents' lists in Stockport and Bolton this week. So dependant on whats available at the mo we should be up there within a month or 2/3.

PS: the plans I started working on before I heard you were thinking similar, I had planned to be more of a slow-and-gentle development process in order to both allow for the 'national trans spoon famine' and to ensure it gone done comprehensively, as opposed to all the mad dash responding we've had so far. (An illustrative example off the top of my head, in case it's needed (abet from another field): develop an fully inclusive proposal for reforming the interaction between the State and personal relationships - rather than asking for a tweak here or there to Civil Partnerships and Marriage, once the Government has already decided how it'll interpret vague calls for equality.)

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[info]foibey
2009-05-22 12:38 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, really looking forward to you coming to Manchester and rigging up a decent trans activism group or something.

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[info]clairlewis
2009-05-22 01:53 pm UTC (link)
Yes I do definitely want to involve in something. At this stage, whilst not wishing to forge ahead with followers as such (if I've understood you correctly), I think you need to possibly recognise that you do have a good and wide thinking grip on this issue, that some of us are not commenting much on the content of your list partly because we have read it and thought 'yup that's right'. This is not necessarily a cop out on all our behalfs. Also it is a LONG list ;-)

I am wondering if what it might be worth doing now is looking at that list and making a simpler version of it, can it be split into areas, for example. Can we boil it's essence into a statement or a clear underlying principle? We're going to need that for a leaflet, but also useful for courting further support from other transpeople via internet. Also willing to help with this, but can't do anything for a few days due to SMDykes conference.

If a meeting can be arranged I would do my best to attend and also look for a clear way I can involve which is within my skill range (apart from obviously also doing whatever I can as your partner to support you in this, which goes without saying). Though of course, as you know I am involved in two networks already and have young children, so the time I am able to offer is limited to some extent.

A possible addition to the list. If the list were categorised into sections for example - medical, legal, social, etc, then I think we need to make sure you raise the recognition of non M/F gender being both legally recognised, but also recognised in the medical system so that for example an 'MTF' medically categorised person can continue with treatments whilst admitting they are genderqueer.

I think the TG people who are not involving with medical treatments responding at this stage have one particular issue which is holding us back here. We still instinctively think we don't meet many of the same issues, when really we can do. We need to get to grips with this somehow. Probably by more discussion (but not on this thread).

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(Anonymous)
2009-05-22 01:57 pm UTC (link)
in response to myself, on the back fo something Phoebe was just saying tp me about the subtle nature of the issues we face. Maybe - what we need to get our head around is this:

The more subtle issues that we face as non TS people are the root of all trans oppression.

The reason we need to talk more about what we see / face / know is we don't have other more pressing issues on top of it, which actually, shiva, makes us great people to concentrate on helping theorise about the underlying issues.

x Dennis x

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(Anonymous)
2009-05-22 02:19 pm UTC (link)
Also, if non TS transgender people don't involve in these matters there's a danger of GQ issues falling off the map (which do affect TS people as well, and not just those people who are TS and GQ).

Dennis x

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[info]darkwaterfairy
2009-05-22 05:39 pm UTC (link)
(Responding both to this and your comment above)

The list I've been developing was separated into different 'subject areas' for the sake of not getting chaotic.

As for the structure of the list, developing to and reference underlying prinicples (linked to an analysis of the mechanics of prejudices and other problems facing us) is totally up my street, although I think such prinicples would make most sense standing as a linked appendix or similar to the main body of proposals for legislative/institutional/community/etc changes.

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[info]clairlewis
2009-05-22 09:25 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, definitely.

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[info]shiva_dan
2009-05-23 03:44 pm UTC (link)
Dennis - i see where you're coming from, and you may well be right... although, it sort of reminds me of saying "disabled people who don't have personal assistance needs need to talk more about dis rights/independent living stuff because we don't have the more pressing issues of our own needs on top"... which, thinking about it, i actually *do* anyway...

(tho i have been told that my own lack of such needs disqualifies me from speaking/theorising on the subject... albeit in anger and in much less intellectual terms - i think you know by who, tho that may be an entirely different issue)

I am very conscious of getting my theory up in someone else's lived experience, when i don't have the lived experience to justify that theory (if that makes sense) - but in neither of those cases would i actually think i don't have the *right* to theorise, just that i think lived experience probably ought to trump theory.

I agree that those with a bit more "distance" can sometimes see the wider/deeper issues more easily due to an absence of immediate, individual-level issues, and that that could be seen as a duty of those who don't have so much of the immediate, individual-level issues - i just think we need to be a bit careful with it.

I need at some point to blog about the concept of "appropriation" and the difficulties i have in dealing with it...

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[info]iris_rivera
2009-05-22 04:24 pm UTC (link)
what london group ? .. if you mean the fiasco post stonewall demo , it all fizzled out because those involved were/are clueless around organising and seemed more interested in exluding people from their little crusade ,
than inclusion and fighting oppression .. so it all ground to a swift halt .. very sad indeed ..

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[info]foibey
2009-05-23 10:16 am UTC (link)
Ewww.

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